Episode 21, Arthur Zouras, CFO, myHomecare

Transcript Please note that this has been transcribed by AI/Bots so there may be typos and the occasional strange things happening. Richard Holmes 0:01 Welcome to the numbers people podcast in partnership with HBr consulting a leading Sydney executive finance recruitment firm. I'm your host, Richard Holmes. In today's episode, I'm talking with Arthur Zouras, CFO for my homecare, the leading in-home aged care business. See I qualified, he is a highly accomplished senior finance professional, and a collaborative leader. He has worked for Expedia, Suncorp, and Aviva. Throughout his career, Arthur is focused on building world-class teams and aligning financial and business metrics to support strategy and high growth. His career has taken them across the globe, working in Asia, Europe and the United States. Great to catch up, it's always a pleasure to meet you again. And I've known Arthur for a number of years and I think your career is really interested in supporting multiple countries. Would you like to tell us more? Arthur Zouras 1:00 Thanks. Thanks for having me on. Where do I start? I'm a good old Perth boy for many years back, finished my CA and got out there as quickly as possible. I moved across to Sydney took the opportunity to come across a position back in the good old days of what was Chase Manhattan which just merged with chemical banks that's going back many many years. Yep. So for me, it was just the opportunity to move across Sydney with no real path or plan. It was just more getting out there taking a risk and seeing what was available. And from there pretty much I was fortunate did the good old Australian thing and moved across to London town for a few years. A few years ended up being 10 years. And from there basically, I sort of grew my role and my position but not until later I enjoyed the contracting side enjoy the travel side and then moved into what was and still is a visa back then which was the global insurance so fortunate enough to enter that space. Early on being a business partner with Norwich Union for those that English and understanding Norwich Union are the joys of travelling up to Norwich. And from there just progressed after 10 years it's hard to come back to Australia joined Egencia which is part of the Expedia group and work my way through there looking after unifying as director of Asia Pacific from there got the opportunity ended up moving across to Seattle and took on the Finance Director role across in Seattle before they restructured and became more of a global functional role decided time to flee the Americas come back to Australia now I've ended up as the CFO in aged care one of Australia's largest national in-home aged care companies very very Korea fortunate that it's been an international career so you've got a bit of exposure in different parts of the world and how different parts operate and the joys of having worked with Expedia and travelling across the world Richard Holmes 2:59 with with them and growing up in Perth we're moving to Sydney for that kind of the first move was that because of your friends or your peers or did you always want to move away Arthur Zouras 3:11 always wanted to move away I mean Perth is a beautiful city but it's a mining town it's you know alwasy in Perth it's just an oversized mining town mining was no interest to me yet I back in the good old days you think you know finances where to be and obviously coming in applying for roles over here in Sydney which is where the opportunity was Yep. And then literally flew myself across did interviews, got the job we chase and then suddenly thought oh god now after move so literally rushing back to Perth giving my four weeks notice and trying to organize myself. Okay, where am I gonna live? What am I going to do? So there's no real for to in house gonna do this, but I just thought I wanted to do it. And you know, there was figured out figured it out as you go Richard Holmes 3:51 along. Which is great. Now, how old would you have been? Arthur Zouras 3:55 Yeah, barely 2020s I just finished my CA so whatever that is, yeah, many years ago, Richard Holmes 3:59 okay. into the big city lights of Sydney into Arthur Zouras 4:02 the big city lights of Sydney. Richard Holmes 4:04 And then I've been here for a few years. And then you did the London contracting? Yeah, absolutely. It Arthur Zouras 4:09 was you know, it was a you know, a rite of passage. Back in the day, everyone, everyone took off to London, which is again, I mean, once you've taken a decision to leave somewhere packing up and leaving, again, is not that difficult. So I was fortunate enough to go across to London. Pick up back in the good old days pick up this was in 2000 pick up contracting jobs that are all available everywhere back in the day. So literally, I landed within a week. I had a job. So you know working for Balfour Beatty as a contractor working on their roadways and their sewage plants. I think they're building their first sewage plant in Aberdeen. So we spent everything you need to know about flows and loads. Nobody, you know nobody. Yeah. Richard Holmes 4:49 That's it's just interesting, isn't it with the fact that you're in Sydney and I kind of couldn't stand back then the move to London. It's just exciting. Arthur Zouras 4:58 It was very exciting and you know, it comes with its risk, but the opportunities are great. And you get to meet a lot of great people, I mean, friends that you have, you know, for life that you've made across the world, not only in London, but you know, that work in London from overseas from the US from across Europe. So it's Yeah, it was, it was an opportunity that you know, and hence, I lasted there for 10 years. And the reason to come back, there was no real reason I thought would be time to go back to Australia, and missing the family, even though we're in Perth, but still close enough to get back to Sydney. And the weather after. I mean, there's only so many times you can fly to the south of France and Barcelona, sunshine. Richard Holmes 5:35 Yeah, well, the weather Arthur Zouras 5:36 eventually gets he doesn't if he's going to after a while, and it was after I moved back in 2010, sales after 2008. And, you know, the GFC and everything else, although, you know, there was nothing wrong with my role and my career Aviva was still doing well. So, um, insurance was one of those, you know, those games that weren’t really impacted that greatly. Those are all well, well run. So from that perspective, was just an opportunity to come back. Richard Holmes 6:01 And tell me about Seattle because you moved there? Arthur Zouras 6:03 Seattle? Yes, I made a few there. The opportunity was through Expedia, the travel game still in there, b2b. Sorry, gentlemen. was just one thing, my CFO at the time. Basically, you know, broached the question to me, would you be interested are looking at restructuring the business over there, like what I did with Asia Pacific, literally say, go cross-talk to the CEO that was running the Americas at the time, which we flew across for a couple of days at a coffee, came back to do whatever you're interested in. I said, why not? If you go So, again, I think it was in six weeks later, I was picking up moving across, finding a place to live online, sight unseen in Seattle. But it's a great opportunity, completely different. Different. I wouldn't say work ethic, because obviously working for the organization, here you have a similar work ethic, but it's a different approach to the way that they view the world. It was very, you didn't realize until you're suddenly in Seattle, which is obviously the headquarters of Expedia that it is a very American view of the world. So it's America and the rest of the world. So it really, it's a huge contrast. And a lot of people don't take note of the rest of the world. Because the Americas are the Americas that is Daddy's home, and that that was the organization's base. And that's that that was headquarters and they run the shop. So so it was interesting experience to see from that perspective being at the global headquarters of an organization. Richard Holmes 7:36 Then you touched on their alpha, you mentioned Why not? It seems to be a theme. Absolutely. Recording moves. Yeah. Arthur Zouras 7:44 Why not? I mean, there was no rhyme or reason I didn't go down the journey to say, you know, having finished my CA, I'm going to be a CFO by the age of x, that was never the career plan. The career plan was to have a varied career. I mean, the joys or I should say, being in finance, especially a chartered accountant, your skills can be adapted, and move across. And you know, if the opportunity does arrive, you know, why not take the reason see what's out there, you may love it, you may hate it. The joys of contracting in the early days, you get to experience a lot of different industries and say, Well, this is not really what I'm into, I still prefer this side. And you get to build your background and experience. And I can tell you when you are setting, look for those more senior roles, and those C suite roles, it is looked upon favourably that you've gone out there. And you've you know, you've gathered experience from not only different organizations, different industries, but also from different industries in different parts of the world. So your exposure is great. And it is, you know, if I look at my current position, you know, that was one of the most valuable things that they actually liked about my CV that I've gone in and got that experience. Whether it's relevant or not for the industry, in this case, you know, I moved from travel to aged care. It's two completely different industries. But Richard Holmes 9:03 obviously, your experience does count. And they do like the fact that you actually went out there and took risks. Which is, which is great. And I think it's I think that's a good lesson for all, isn't it? Absolutely. The breadth of your experience and what you're going through in different industries can only be a good thing. Arthur Zouras 9:20 Absolutely. And it doesn't have to be a single path. You just you know, you find you find your way around you look around the corner, so why not get to the point why not just take a risk. You may not work and engineer for name artwork, you move on. Richard Holmes 9:32 Exactly. I mean, everyone's situation is different. But what is the worst that can happen? Like you move over to the UK? Obviously, at the moment, you're not but if you do if it doesn't work, you guess you come Arthur Zouras 9:42 back? Absolutely. You come Exactly. Richard Holmes 9:44 And what advice would you give to someone wanting to pursue a career like yours? Arthur Zouras 9:52 Don't ask gets in the way or the advice I gave myself is just get out there and do it. I mean, there's no other way. You can't plan for it and I didn't plan for it. Yep, you just got to go out there and do it and just take the opportunities that come your way. I mean, obviously, you need to put yourself out there, you don't suddenly get handed jobs. Yep. And you need to put yourself out there. You talk to other people in the organization's you talk to other people in the industry, build up a network, get to understand what's out there, or talk to recruiters, they are the ones that know exactly what's out there. Talk about your skillset, what you're interested in what you're not interested in. I don't know what the contracting markets like this anymore, but that was always a great opportunity to go experience different industries. Yeah, that's, Richard Holmes 10:34 it sounds like you've been very present, as well, when when you made the moves. It's just like, what what's what are the opportunities available? Absolutely. And judging case by case and just go for it? And you have to go for it. Yeah, it's not overanalyze it. And I can imagine working for the companies you've worked for, you've had some good bosses, over the years, have you had any particular mentors or anyone who's influenced you? The most, Arthur Zouras 11:00 I would say the, my, my boss at Expedia was probably the one that has influenced me the most the we our relationship 11:12 was Arthur Zouras 11:15 completely online. As such, we met a few times he he was based in Paris, I was based in Sydney, originally. And so we built that rapport. And he, I think that what I enjoyed the most out of him, it was that they complete trust in knowing that you're gonna go out there and do the right thing for the organization. And it wasn't wasn't, you're obviously always challenged in what you do. But more importantly, this is yours, you own this, you make it happen, I'm here to support you, I'm here for advice, whatever you need, obviously, he will challenge whatever, you know, based on what's going on, that's Dan's job. But the more he gave you that freedom, and, you know, the ability to go out and say, This is yours, you'll be brought on for a reason. And you know, this, this beast, which was a pack Richard Holmes 12:02 is yours to do, which is the way it should be that autonomy. I think since I first met, you've done that's how you lead your team as well. Absolutely. Arthur Zouras 12:10 Absolutely. If you I always said maybe expect to come in and work for me. And I'm gonna hand you a book that tells you what to do. You've come to the wrong organization. Yeah. Richard Holmes 12:17 That's what people like is, and I think we've talked about this numerous times. micromanagement is just the worst thing and working in the recruitment industry, you hear these stories are very much archaic and big stick mentality you do as I say, we do it now. And no, which I Arthur Zouras 12:32 totally disagree with it. I mean, not only, I mean, to your point on a mentor, I mean, not only are you learning from you know, your bosses, but you're learning from the people that you bring on, everyone comes in with a different skill set. And you do learn from every level, someone will have a different idea. And as long as you're open, and you listen, and they're comfortable approaching that idea with you. I'm learning new things every day. I mean, you're fully aware of the team that I've built. Yep, you've helped me recruit that team. So and today, they have a skill set, I don't have, and I rely on them, and they have the autonomy and the freedom to go out and build what needs to be built for the finance function. And, you know, I stand back and say, wow, I would never have thought of that. Yeah. Richard Holmes 13:14 And it's a couple of times out there through this podcast, where the number of people in your situation and your level of learning from the more junior members, Oh, absolutely. In the team lead. So you can't know everything. That's where you got to look the gaps. Arthur Zouras 13:27 I'm a good old chartered accountant, these days, where they're coming in with their knowledge of you know, SQL services, servers, all that sort of stuff, and BI tools. And I just, I sometimes look at everything. I've no idea what you're saying. But I like the outcome. Richard Holmes 13:40 Yeah. And that's what it's about, isn't it outcomes. And reflecting on your career is the one thing you would have loved to have known. Now, back in the early days, what I've loved I've known now back in my early days. Arthur Zouras 13:57 It's an interesting one, I don't have a real policy of looking back on things that they were what it was it, it brought me to where I am today. There have been good experiences or being bad experiences. Would I do it differently? No. It would I look at it, what would I like to know? And back then? Maybe nothing different? Because it may have changed the path? Richard Holmes 14:22 Yeah. That's a great way to look at it. No, and knowing you for a few years now after you come across is curious individual around work and again, moving to aged care different industry. How do you how do you continue to stay on top of your role? Arthur Zouras 14:42 I mean, it is you're quite right is that curiosity not in not in the role itself or the role in the organization, the industry understanding not only the finance function, I mean, finance, after a while is Richard Holmes 14:57 you know if Arthur Zouras 14:58 it's the same data source organization, it's you doing what you need to do everything from management, to compliance to statutory to, to some bi, analytics, all the rest. It's really getting to understand the business, understanding the people in the business, what makes it work. Aged Care is one of those interesting spaces that is going through a lot of transformation at the moment. And therein lies the greatest opportunity in what is aged care. I mean, we're delivering services to you know, our age, the most vulnerable in our community at the moment. But, it is an evolving industry, and it's evolving industry that everyone wants to get right. And I think that's the interesting part of this sector and 13 from a finance perspective, but also on how we deliver services. We technology, how do we utilize technology to deliver services, and we're in-home care providers that we don't own facilities, we actually provide the kit in your home. So if you think of us, we're, you know, a large logistics business as well. And so we needed to get carriers out to our clients at the time they want when they want with it with the service they want. So for me, it's an interesting industry, completely different to I could all travel days. Yeah, but travel and care have one thing in common, it's logistics, yes, getting someone from A to B, especially the type of care that we deliver in your home. And technology is the interesting aspect of this industry, which they're not utilizing Richard Holmes 16:25 appropriately. And out of all, when you look at all the different industries aged care does have that spotlight, a huge spotlight, which which is a good thing for the industry, Arthur Zouras 16:34 it's a good thing for the industry, and to be completely selfish, it's good for the In-Home aged care providers, which is what we are, because, from our perspective, we're delivering a service how the client wants it in their home, in their community, around their friends, the family, the people that may know, yeah, as opposed to where the major spotlight, it's been, it's unclear within residential homes. so fortunate for us, and I shouldn't probably maybe not include that, unfortunately. It is where the nature of the industry is going, if you look at where Australia is, and if you look at where the UK is, the UK is predominantly different in the home and most of Europe, most of the US. So we're the anomaly even friends in New Zealand, you know, 70% of care is delivered at home, not residential, and where that was the exact reverse. So I think it's just a long time for Australia to get ready to get to. Richard Holmes 17:23 Yeah, already that I think it needs. It required some like 80,000 staff over the next Arthur Zouras 17:29 In next few years by 2053 70% increase in staffing requirements. So you can imagine the level of training and staff and recruitment and make make it more of a career, as opposed to just delivering a service because you know, delivering care is all about the individual employee that's delivering that care and then making it into a career that allows him to progress and not just a job. Richard Holmes 17:55 Yep. So it's a good point. And we touched on before about SQL servers in the skill sets. You know, you've seen a lot in your finance career, how what do you think the future of finance looks like? Arthur Zouras 18:11 Ai more analytical, we have a lot of data. And if I look at the industry that I'm in now, it is a transactional industry, we have a lot of data. And there's a lot of data in there that can tell us something about the future. In the centre, I know if I take an example of delivering care to a client, I know the type of care that I'm delivering a day in day out, obviously, we have to schedule the right people. And what we're not using is the predictive nature of that data. With respect to if I'm seeing an increase in you know, different types of kids, what is it saying about the care needs of the person? Is it leading to some sort of chronic illness? Is it working down that path, so that data from a client perspective, from a finance perspective, obviously, it allows us to understand how we should start recruiting because obviously, you get different care needs different if it were a national organization where that care is required? So it gives us more predictive information on where we're going to need future care, future carriers deliver those effect care. So AI is a space we're trying to implement something now with a couple of guys that you actually helped us put on. So that's the space that we're looking at, and how can we use a lot of the data that we have? And what does it actually telling us about the future of the profitability of the organization? But also tell us something about the client? What is it telling us about the client, it's, Richard Holmes 19:29 it's, it's a good point as well. And we’ve spoken another occasion, the similarities between travel and aged care because it's about data, Arthur Zouras 19:38 it's data and it's and, you know, people gonna kill me for saying this. You did I say it's not a logistics business where we are in the business of delivering care. That is our business. And to enable us to do that. We need to know how to get you to know employee a to client B, and around so you know, 1000s of clients 1000s of employees Just sticks of making that happen, ensuring that we're delivering the right employee at the right time. Yeah, so it's a lot of work. So a lot of data that's required to enable that to happen. Richard Holmes 20:11 And the focus for you guys over the next few years how to, to simplify that really complex process, Arthur Zouras 20:16 how to simplify and how to scale. Because you as you can imagine, obviously, the care needs is one thing, but where, where is that care required? It's not as if it's the facility over year, it's, you know, I'm, I'm in the Sunshine Coast, a Gold Coast, you know, the Central Coast. You know, Perth, Adelaide, you know, it's different demographics, the government does really state on the demographics, obviously, you need to look at where their population is aging, to understand, where is that population aging, and more importantly, the demographic of the staff, do we have staff in that area to enable us to deliver services for the age for the cities, it's easy when you get into regional and country areas, that becomes a challenge? Richard Holmes 20:54 It must be tough going off on a tangent in the healthcare industry? Because it's a lot of jobs in healthcare. Why would you do that kind of healthcare, it's later than before it's, yeah, it's a kind of re-engineering, it's way more career-focused Arthur Zouras 21:11 mockery for us and you entered this space because you know, you care, you want to deliver great service, and ultimately, it comes down to it. It's a caring industry, and you care. So our responsibility is to give you the tools to navigate, you know, do your job effectively. Richard Holmes 21:24 And I completely agree with it. It's a personality thing. Arthur Zouras 21:27 Absolutely. That's, that's what you recruit for. Ultimately, most roles, that's what you create with the employee is the personality, regardless of you delivering care, or you're in the finance function. You come in with a certain skill set? Do you have the personality that fits in with the organization where the organization wants to be? And all people I mean, all if I look at us, I mean, you have to care regardless, in our industry, regardless whether you're in finance, whether you're in, you know, HR, whatever it is, if you don't care of what you're doing, then you shouldn't be within the age. Let's face Richard Holmes 22:00 it, we talked earlier, in terms of mistakes and failures that you've possibly enjoyed through Korea. Have you personally first faced any hurdles or anything you look back on and think, Oh, I could have done that different? And if so? How did you address it? And would you do Arthur Zouras 22:17 it differently? mistakes, failures, you're always gonna, they're always going to occur. You learn from him. You got to be honest about him. Do you do things differently? I think we had this conversation, you never do anything differently? Yeah, it happened. It occurred, you know, something from it. And you move on. And you can't if you're gonna spend your time thinking, Oh, I could have done this. I could have done that. But it's too late. It's over. There's, you've learned something probably. There's no point in just going back over Richard Holmes 22:46 is just about the learnings you've got from absolutely that conversation or learning from remembering Arthur Zouras 22:52 things yourself. Do you do something? How would you have done something differently? Absolutely. Do you learn from that? Yep. But you don't, but you kind of need to do it. Yeah, you need to get sorted, as opposed to avoiding evidence making a decision or doing that ever again. Richard Holmes 23:06 Unless I think through life and through careers, no matter what field you're in. Everyone makes mistakes. There's no one perfect. Richard Holmes 23:26 So what does culture mean to you, wolf? culture is an interesting one. Arthur Zouras 23:39 Can I touch on the conversation that we had earlier about Richard Holmes 23:41 topical conversations? It Arthur Zouras 23:42 was an interesting conversation that we had earlier before this with regards to people working at home. Yep. And obviously, it's extremely topical, people are enjoying it. There are productivity gains in some areas in some in other areas or employees, I want to bring him back. But the question is raised to me and I say culture is extremely important in an office environment and how you maintain and grow their culture. And if I go back to we are a caring organization. So that is central to, what we expect from individuals. But with people now wanting to work from home and enjoying working from home compared to working in an office environment, you have to question what was the true value of culture? If they don't? If it wasn't, then if it's that important? Well, then why are people not rushing to get back into the office and be part of that team or that culture? It just seems that it maybe have to question yeah, not not the value of culture, culture. It's extremely valuable in an organization, but whether that culture was the right culture to bring people back. And there is a question that I don't know. We still have people working remotely, but you know, most of us work remote regardless because we're delivering care in people's homes. But central to our culture is obviously care, regardless of where you are, but going back to what is the true value of culture, extremely important in an environment where people don't want to go back to an office, which I would argue, well, what does it say about the culture? Richard Holmes 25:16 its culture is well, it stems from the leadership sense. Absolutely. But to your point, I was telling my brother in law, he's got senior on a big, large corporate and he basically, he has been working from home. And for the last 12 months, he said, I can do my job for any company. It doesn't matter who you work for, I can do it from home and do it really well. So for his lifestyle loan, a cultural point of view doesn't matter where he works, culture means nothing, nothing, no, he has his role he can do his duties of his role. Absolutely, exceptionally well from his desk in his home office. Arthur Zouras 25:50 So it was work-culture compensating for lifestyle. Yeah. Now, everyone, has their lifestyle been living in the city or a lot of people moving out the country and I've got a, an ex-colleague of mine that's out there working from home, a new job working from home, and that's the culture of the organization. And yeah, they're a national organization, organization, and they just fly in and fly it, you know, down in Melbourne on Wednesday, for a meeting, I've been seeing you on Thursday. It changes the dynamic. And I think that creates a different culture and that you have the freedom to live your life lifestyle, and intertwine that with work and then you know, that whole work balance mix is thrown out the door because it's one of the things Richard Holmes 26:37 I think culture as well it's an individual, it is an individual, it's an individual thing, it's in us a thing of people working from home and our digressing a bit in this conversation working from home it's some people love it. So people hate can't wait to get back to the office, they miss that, that buzz of the interaction and cooperation, which you don't get Arthur Zouras 26:56 No, no, absolutely. And I'm that person I enjoy being in the office. And I like the collaboration I like having the team around me is listening in to new ideas and like I said in the space that we're going down, it's all new to me so I'm learning something and if it wasn't for us being in the office, I wouldn't learn anything new from you know, from that hole from you know, SQL Servers bi all these different ways of doing business and AI You know, it just be you I think it'd become stale because you'd only know what you ever know you never kind of other people in the environment because new people come in new people leave so there's that constant interaction that you get not only from finance but different from different parts Richard Holmes 27:40 of the business in that learning, you get from listening to conversations you're not necessarily a party to it, so it's invaluable which year but yeah, let's it's gonna be just like fascinating, interesting. How it's gonna pan out and no one knew after you're a happy guy, what's the favourite thing about your career? You come across like a passionate enthusiastic guy, but what do you like most about the autonomy of my career? Arthur Zouras 28:10 And I think it's I've made it mine I've owned it be good or bad. And that's what makes me happy I am where I am because I've taken choices I've taken risks. And I've been fortunate that you know, I've been awarded you know, different roles in different parts of the world. And it's the autonomy that comes with it Richard Holmes 28:31 that's that's great. And touching on what you said yeah, you're a chill out calm guy when you do feel under pressure or overwhelmed what what do you do Arthur Zouras 28:42 doesn't happen Richard Holmes 28:45 I like it. I like it. Let's good doesn't take into stride okay. Arthur Zouras 28:49 Australian I like as probably we should edit this one out to people it's numbers on spreadsheet people stop by for Richard Holmes 28:57 talking about that Arthur a lot of people know the other thing that's good leadership from a finance point of view where the emphasize that point it's not life or death. No. Yeah, we have deadlines and this pressure line that we're storing the perhaps the building's gonna lose a life or that nothing. Arthur Zouras 29:13 You know, sometimes we don't meet those deadlines and you know, things happen you can't control every aspect of what goes on day in and day out. Richard Holmes 29:20 No, it's Yeah, I think it's it's the management of that as well like in working in the recruitment industry. We have some famous people who are under pressure all the time he just think wow, doesn't need to be like that. Yeah, I like to know what he's doing. 29:34 More important. Richard Holmes 29:35 Oh, some people work these hours let's think wow, what are you doing all the time but yeah, I can be better and I'm in to close out Arthur, knowing what you know, now you've had this aming Korea. What would you say to your younger self, not just in your caree, but in life in general. Arthur Zouras 29:57 The younger self is, you know, do what you've done. Yeah. Go out, enjoy it, you've taken the risks and you know, it's rewarded you you are where you are today. Because you just went out there and you know, you didn't have a specific path that you're going to adapt. You just you went out there and did it. So I think I said you wouldn't, I wouldn't change what I've done. you've, you've learned from the good and the bad. And yeah, and you are here today, and there's more to come. It's a slight slant. And it is. There's more to come. I keep saying to a lot of people, you're not dead yet. So Richard Holmes 30:29 keep going. Yeah. And, Joe, I find inspiring as well. Like I'm the early 40s. And you hear these. These guys and gals who are in like the 60s have got that reinvigoration. If somebody like to start a new career starting businesses in you think on not at the back end of recovery. We just kind of started knowing that. It's I think, life's that constant learning, isn't it? And Arthur Zouras 30:53 I've never been able to look forward to the retirement thing. 30:55 Why would you do that? Richard Holmes 30:57 What are you going to do? Exactly? Yeah, it's Yeah, I mean, that's the thing. You hear these stories where people retire early, and they're just bored. I remember my old man, I think he retired when he's 55. And within two, two weeks, he was applying for jobs. hated it. Yeah. We're not going on holiday. You're just like, well, it's a bit boring. Yeah. Arthur Zouras 31:14 My father did the same thing at 58. Time to return. It didn't last when I came back into business. Got to keep her keep yourself engaged and motivated. Absolutely. Richard Holmes 31:25 Hey, Arthur, really appreciate your time. I think you've been a great guest. And thank you. Lots of insight, wisdom. It's good to listen to your story. Hopefully, it's been valuable to people that are listening and we'll have to have you on the podcast again soon. Perfect. Thank you. Arthur Zouras 31:37 Thank you very much. Richard Holmes 31:38 Thanks. Cheers.