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Episode 4 - Arno Geldenhuys, The Star Entertainment Group

  • Posted 18 Mar 2021
  • Richard Holmes
  • Podcast

Arno Geldenhuys is currently the GM for Commercial Finance at The Star Entertainment Group

Arno is an energetic and pro-active Senior Finance Executive with more than 15 years of’ corporate planning and management experience in listed organisations. 

Arno focuses on uncovering what moves the needle in any business environment, guiding the teams he leads to consistent, sustained success.

He fundamentally believes that value is added by asking the right questions. It is through calculated curiosity that the solution to any problem can be found.

Transcript Please note that this has been transcribed by AI/Bots so there may be typos and the occasional strange things happening. The Numbers People Podcast - Episode 4 - Arno Geldenhuys, Star Casino Richard Holmes 0:04 Welcome to the numbers people podcast in partnership with HBr consulting a leading Sydney executive finance recruitment firm. I'm your host, Richard Holmes. Richard Holmes 0:22 In Episode Four, we welcome Arno Gelndenhuys. Arno is currently the GM for commercial finance and the stock casino. I know is an energetic and proactive executive and 15 years corporate planning and management experience gained within less than two organizations. Arno focuses on uncovering what moves the needle in any business environment guiding the teams he leads to consistent sustained success. He fundamentally believes that value is added by asking the right questions. And it's through calculated curiosity that the solution to any problem can be fun. Oh, no. How are you? Good to see you again. Yeah, 0:59 it's it's nice to be and thank you for the opportunity, Richard. Yeah, no, Richard Holmes 1:03 no problem at all. I've known I know, for a number of years, and always originally from South Africa. And he's currently the general manager for all things commercial finance out the Star casino. Arno would like to tell us your story. Yeah, Arno Geldenhuys 1:19 I think I'll start the story, Richard, sort of how we came to know each other. So I guess, in the 2010s, I realized that things are not going so well in South Africa. And, you know, we were sort of looking for an environment where we wanted to raise our kids. And we applied for permanent residency in Australia at the time. But without the sort of definitive plans to move. And sort of during that period, I got a great opportunity at sort of the leading group, not in not only in South Africa, but I guess in Africa, which is this massive, multinational internet company. So, you know, basically landed my, my dream job, where you got exposure to sort of the brightest minds and all across the world, and in very exciting in a fast-growing industry. The company, sort of, we're very lucky in investing in, it was a, it was a legacy newspaper business, they invested in, in newspapers in China, which, which failed horribly, that a sales sell that for about $30 million, and they couldn't get it out of the country. And this opportunity came up, which is a bunch of guys starting a business out of the garage, and, you know, sort of the money was stuck, and they decided to invest in these entrepreneurs in China. And that investment turned out to be 10 cent, which, you know, when I lifted was worth about $500 billion. And I think today, you know, with stock markets going bananas, it's probably $800 billion. So it's, it's just been a phenomenal growth story. So to be part of that was incredible. learned a lot. And as I say, just being exposed to the brightest minds was was was incredible. Unfortunately, the time was sort of ticking and and we had to make a decision on this permanent residency. And when we really wanted to have the best for our kids, and decided to sort of leave all of that behind and make our way to Australia. So I resigned at a three month notice period over there, and sort of just started looking for opportunities and seek and as you do when you when you're not in the country, you start bombing off emails to two random recruiters. And it was just crickets on the other side, didn't hear from anyone. And one day, I got an email back from one of your previous colleagues, Greg McKenzie, and he said, Look, you've got an interesting CV, and if you're ever in Sydney, give me a shot. And I kind of replied and got on a plane the next week. So I met with Greg and in that sort of trip, I also met up with Brad Eisenhuth. So I look for people who seem to be connectors, found Brad and I said, Hey, would you mind if I just have a bit of a catch up with you at a wonderful meeting with Brad and it was incredibly generous in introducing me to a lot of people in his network. You've been one of them, Richard. And you know, I've been very blessed in that. When I left South Africa, I think I left on a Thursday evening and Friday morning, I had an interview at the start, you know, and you know, the rest is history. So things worked out very well. But in that process, I also got exposed to some some some really brilliant people and some of the best people in the recruitment industry that I've ever come across. So very grateful to Brad and to to Greg for for the opportunities and for making our landing a lot softer here in Australia. Richard Holmes 4:54 That's, that's great. You've been in the stock seat or since you landed here and excellent. It's been, Arno Geldenhuys 5:01 yeah, it's been phenomenal. It's a very interesting business, and it's continuously changing, you know, it is a business that you would think doesn't change a lot. But, you know, there's a, I think I've been through three or four restructures in my time yet. So I started off as in a bit of a corporate function, where it was a corporate FP&A role within centralized the finance function. So the FP&A functions then centralized underneath the team. And then sort of the last evolution was commercial finance, also falling into the team. So So we've gone through a bit of a journey and sort of getting closer and closer to the value add as a team as time progressed. So taking a lot of cost out of the function, as many corporates have gone through, and it really just trying to be headcount light and find those efficiencies. And that's kind of the journey that we've been through, really focusing on what moves the needle being agile. And to a large extent COVID has helped us to, to get there as well, you know, we had to just start from scratch a blank canvas and really think about what it is that we do and where we add value. And that's actually really helped us to eke out those efficiencies, there was needed to run a function on such a reduced cost base. Richard Holmes 6:19 Yeah, it's interesting, we touched on before, we started recording this, just that there's a silver lining to everything. And I think COVID has benefited a lot of businesses, in terms of they've been a lot more agile, which Yes, sir. posted to everything, right? So So what advice would you give to sort of wanting to pursue a career similar to yours, Arno Geldenhuys 6:42 I'll give two pieces of advice, which are, I think the first one is to not jump ship at the first sign of trouble. You know, sometimes your best chances to get promoted, come during hard times. So I think if you stay loyal for longer, it will pay off. So I think people should look for a tenure of between three and five years at an organization that's really, really learn the business and understand it. And we actually really start to add value. And I would say, the second thing is to stop trying to impress others with your functional proficiency but impress them with your ability to communicate. So for me, it's very important to keep investing in your communication skills early on, you're going to work for quite a few companies, and your skills will travel with you. But your results will largely be forgotten. So I think it's very important to continue to invest in those things that will benefit you in your career going forward, you know, especially early on in your career. Richard Holmes 7:46 That's really good advice. I know in terms of your first point as well, where you've got to invest that like kind of three to five years where you really start adding value we've seen in the market, I'm sure you've seen it when you've had to recruit yourself, just a lot of people these days are so so jumpy. And I read the other day that the people that start their careers now are gonna have 18 to 19 jobs in my career, which is, which is phenomenal, isn't it? It's like I'm in my early 40s. And I was like, wow, that's a lot of jobs. But I think that's great advice, where, where you've got to kind of like earn your stripes. And sometimes that takes time to, to really build up that trust and be valued in your company. Yeah, it's, it's interesting, your point about communication as well, that's, that's more crucial these days in finance, rather than just those technical abilities. So what's the biggest area related to your career role? Like you're most curious about? And why cuz I can understand where to start, the amount of data coming through there must be phenomenal. 8:47 Yeah, Arno Geldenhuys 8:48 I'm naturally a curious person. You know, I spend a lot of people who watch television or read books, I, I really try to find out what, and especially this uncertain time, you know, I'm very curious about sort of the big picture. So geopolitics, macroeconomics, really, where the world's heading in terms of demographics, and, you know, from politics point of view. So yeah, I'm really curious about those things. Because ultimately, they have an impact on not only our industries and the countries we live in, but you know, in our own ability to invest, you know, the future for our children. And if you think about it more from a, from a career point of view, it helps you to plan for the various scenarios in the short and the medium and the long term. So I think it's, I'm naturally curious about those big plays, as I say, is really what's happening with demographics in various parts of the world. And what are the geopolitical tensions what's likely going to play out in the next decade, right? And not only from their point of view but from a macroeconomic point of view. I find it so interesting that we've got access to the brightest minds and all of this information. No one can actually tell you whether we can have inflation or deflation. You know, there's just no consistent view about anything at the moment, which means you have to really be across what are the drivers of all those things so you can have your own informed views. And as I say, so that you can work on certain scenarios and how that affects your business and your personal life as well. So that's really what I'm curious about. It should be easy these big picture things, but it's not it's it's very nebulous isn't that everyone's got a contradictory view on where the world said it Richard Holmes 10:32 sure is true. And being naturally curious in your job has got to be a good thing, isn't it? In? If you're in the finance, space, being curious, is got to be a good trade-off? Arno Geldenhuys 10:43 Yeah, I think it's a trade to a good trade, for anyone to be honest. It just people, a lot of people struggle to stay up to date. I think if you are naturally curious, and curiosity is just a mindset, I think it just comes easy. And it's easy to relate to people. It's, it's easy to, especially when you start forecasting, you need to understand all the different dynamics and the leavers that have an impact on, on on, as I say, not only your business but the broader environment as well. Richard Holmes 11:13 Definitely. So look at looking at reflecting on your career now is the one thing you'd wish you'd known earlier on in your career. hindsight, toxic, a great thing. But Arno Geldenhuys 11:25 yeah, I think with the benefit of hindsight, you can see where value is added. And obviously, if you had that view early on, would be beneficial. So, you know, again, it's advice I would give my younger self is to dedicate yourself to understanding customers and the customers of the business that you're in. You know, from my experience, the most valuable person or company is the one who best understands the customer. So I reckon you have to become the customer needs expert, whether you're in finance, or whether you're in, in, in operations, that's very important. So it's something that I try to do in every role and sort of instill in my teams is that customer focus and really breathing and understanding what it is that that's important to you to your customers. Richard Holmes 12:17 That's, that's just a great way to look at it, isn't it? When you understand what makes them tick, the rest should fall into place. That's right. And Arno Geldenhuys 12:24 it's unfortunately, a lot of the businesses and even the successful ones that I've been a part of, it's, you know, everyone says they're customer-centric. But, you know, it's not really in the DNA and the culture of the organization. So it's something that a lot of people pay lip service to, but but but it's not that easy to actually bet down as a cool part of the culture. Richard Holmes 12:46 earlier on, I know you mentioned you work with some brilliant minds back in South Africa, and to this day at the star who has influenced you the most true. Arno Geldenhuys 12:57 So it's a very long list, Richard, there's a quote I like which is, which is you are the average of the five people you spend the most time with? You know, and I am a voracious reader, as I think I've mentioned before, so I tend to whip through three to five books a week. And those people who write those books are often the minds that I spend the most time with. So whoever's influencing me the most is probably the person who I'm reading. So I tend to find someone that I like what they've got to say. And then I read four or five books on, on everything that they've they've ever put out there. So it changes on a monthly basis, to be honest. So at the moment, I'm really into a guy called Peter Zai. Han. He's geopolitics. He specializes in geopolitics. And a very interesting character in terms of forecasting where the world is heading. And Richard Holmes 13:56 interesting. So in terms of your self-development and self-learning yourself, you're a big reader. That's, that's, that's how you develop yourself. Yes, that's right. Is that correct? Yeah. Okay, Arno Geldenhuys 14:08 I'm a big reader. And I say nowadays, with with with long commutes, I spend a lot of time listening to audiobooks as well. And also sort of on YouTube. You know, there's a lot of really interesting content out there. And as I say, we're living in incredible times, we've got access to the brightest minds, and you can, you can get through quite a lot. I typically put things on three times the speed so that I can get through it very quickly. So you can cover quite a lot of ground. Richard Holmes 14:38 And that's interested in going off script a bit. I know book recommendation, what would be the best book you've read? You've read recently. Arno Geldenhuys 14:50 There's a few that that standard and one that I find myself often recommending to people. It's not a very well known book. It's called stealing the corner office. And it's by a guy called Brendan Reed. And it's a little bit of counterintuitive advice on how to succeed in corporate culture. So it's all-around office politics, and how corporates are not necessarily meritocracies. And there's a lot of politics and play at play, and how do you survive an environment like that? So it's things like, Don't get too passionate about your ideas, because, you know, people don't, it's not about what's right, it's or who's right, it's about what's right. And if you stick to your ideas too passionately, people would want to work with you, you know, or, when you do, when you give a recommendation, give a couple of recommendations, therefore, there's a panel that, that decides on the action, and you will be held accountable for something that's gone wrong. You know, it's a bit as I said, it's a bit counterintuitive, but it's really good because I've seen a lot of really bright people, 16:00 again, who are Arno Geldenhuys 16:03 very proficient in, in sort of the hard skills, but they are not really good at navigating sort of corporate politics. And this book really just helps them to, to find the kinks in the armour, so to speak, and be better at that sort of corporate shenanigans that we all have to face on a daily basis. Richard Holmes 16:26 Sounds interesting. I'll have to check it out. So when you look at your career, what's been the biggest hurdle or challenge you've faced? And how did you overcome it? Arno Geldenhuys 16:44 I think for me, personally, it's you know, I'm, I'm just a guy from a rural town in Africa. And English is my second language. So I constantly have to work on improving my communication skills. And so that's a lifelong journey for me. So it's, it's really about that growth mindset and making sure that you sort of never satisfied with where you're at, you know, for me, communication is one of those things, you can never be a good enough communicator, and therefore, you know, the way I look at it is I just need to continuously work on being better at it. So everything from improving your vocabulary, too, to body language, too, to all these things that make you a better communicator is, is, has been hurdles for me in the past, and things that I've had to work really hard on, and continue to work at, as I said, because it's as someone who's not a native communicator in English, yeah, that that's pretty difficult. So you have to continue to work on those skills. Richard Holmes 17:49 So have your tape, I mean, the way you come across aren't always great. And your communication your articulation is is really good. What we see in finance, and the way finance is going and communication is key to have anyone been successful in the finance space? Have you, if you just let your communication skills and body language through? Just meet with people? Or have you done actually specific courses? Or with the exception of actually learning English in the first place? No. Arno Geldenhuys 18:18 So I go through these various rabbit holes, I, I would go through a period of time where I really truly just work on my vocabulary, right? So get that better, then I would go through a period where I do a couple of courses on personal branding, then I would do a couple on sort of business writing or so yeah, it's something that I'm constantly working on and some facet of communication because it is quite a wide area. So I can't actually say there's one or two specific causes, you know, I've seen people do some very interesting things, you know, improv comedy, for example, or go to some of these acting schools. And I think those are important. It just whatever you can do to prove that communication style and is really your ability to influence that ball will Richard Holmes 19:10 be will get you ahead. 19:12 Yeah. Richard Holmes 19:14 It's, it's true. I mean, they know the nature of my role of I meet some really amazing people and technically why so great, but just that reserved personality, I do believe you can become great that I am improved by I think it's just it's just like constant improvement isn't it's not just about doing one course and then right after that call some a great communicator now. Arno Geldenhuys 19:36 Yes. And it's about getting yourself out of your comfort zone. I mean, I was thinking about this podcast, it's not something I think everyone's jumping out to do right. It's pretty uncomfortable. So but it does force you out of your comfort zone and, and how to improve in areas, which I think is very important. Richard Holmes 19:54 And we've touched on it a couple of times. Now. What do you think the future of finance looks like? I mean, we've in terms of business partner within the finance community, that's fairly new terms of the last a decade. What do you see the next 10 years looking like? Arno Geldenhuys 20:13 I think finance teams going forward will be headcount light, as as you know, the economic environment continues to be volatile, and probably we need to face some headwinds. So finance light, and that will require quite some different skills from us. So I think things like enhanced technology, and modelling skills are going to be very important. We seen a lot of overlap with the strategic and analytical team. So a lot of organizations now have analytical teams with real data science guys. And they often joke and say, Excel is a soft skill, and I think they're right, you know, as finance, people will, will, will have to rescale ourselves and things like Python and Rn, and really wrangling big data sets. And ultimately, I think we're getting to a phase where finance will have to look. And we'll have to be the custodians of the quality of all business died out not just financial information, right. So we seeing that there's a move around finance having to bring that financial rigour to non-financial data, you know, customer 21:24 data, Arno Geldenhuys 21:25 anything that that's necessary for the business to be to make decisions. So I think that that's really where finance is gonna isn't gonna play a role in bringing that processes and controls excellence and governance, to the non-financial data that that is in organizations. Richard Holmes 21:44 Yet, it's got to evolve a lot in the next few years, isn't it? Arno Geldenhuys 21:48 Yes. But for you, it always seems to be evolving in the right direction. So I'm pretty excited about that. Richard Holmes 21:55 Yeah, it's true, isn't it? I think there the role of finance, and I touched on it earlier this morning with someone where when I got here in 2006, finance was very much that back-office function you very much the accountants with the pens in the top pocket, yeah, the involvement of Finance. And in the stats coming up the map CFOs that go into the CEO geek over the last few years, it just shows how much the finance team has evolved. So it's going to be interesting to see how it pans out over the next few years. So hypothetically if you had the extra budget to spend on in finance, where would you spend that you touched on before Python, we talked about people? If your boss said to Arno, look, we've got $10 million dollars here. There go and spend this on your team. Arno Geldenhuys 22:46 Yeah, we'll go back to one of my earlier points. So it's, I will spend it on developing my team and getting them to understand the customer a lot better, right. So again, I think finance, folk are very competent, but they need to get, they need to be better at really understanding the customer needs. And therefore they need to be able to wrangle all kinds of data from different sources where all that customer information live so that they can extrapolate that and, and find interesting correlations and just come up with insight in terms of what it is that a customer needs. So I would spend it and make sure that the finance team is the customer needs experts in the organization. I think that's where the value is added. And I think there is a lot of rescaling that has to happen before we get there. Richard Holmes 23:39 Yeah, that's, that's a good point. And we, in terms of the finance team, you've touched on it a couple of times, it's going to be headcount light moving forward. So what's your opinion on what like a perfect finance team would look like with transaction roles? Do you think they're gonna go down there? automation robotics, especially for large corporates? What do you think it would look like in the future? I know, that's quite a question. What are your thoughts? You know, 24:12 I think that Arno Geldenhuys 24:15 finance teams will adapt. And we've seen that during the lockdown, where we had to go outside of our swim lanes and get involved with contract variations and supply chain issues. And, you know, we had to be thrown out the old budget process and forecast you're almost on it on a weekly basis as things change. So, so I think finance folk will be able to adapt what exactly that looks like. I don't know. But you know, to answer your question in a slightly different way that the perfect Firestein for me is really about the right culture. So I think if you've got the right mix of people and you've got the right culture, I think you would be able to adapt to whatever is sort of thrown at us going forward. And sort of quickly touch on what I think a good culture is. And that's where I think people feel that they are able, to tell the truth. And to create that sort of a culture, it's, it's really about making sure you build a culture of calmness. One way everyone focuses on what to do next, versus faulted was, you know, get over things quickly give second chances, they can give feedback, I think if you've got that cultural element, right, you've got the perfect finance team. What everyone's responsibilities are, that sort of will shakes out depending on the needs. And I think, if you've got the right culture, and you've got the right mix of skills in the team, you know, that's really the perfect finance team. So they'll be agile enough to adapt to, to whatever is in front of them. Richard Holmes 25:57 And when you reflect on your career, and what's been the favourite thing in your career, when you look back, I mean, what, what you enjoyed the most, or is it just a constant thing for you? Arno Geldenhuys 26:10 Yeah, I think this year has helped me crystallize what that is. And I think you and I touched on it on our chat before this interview. And that's it, you know, I think a career is, is a wonderful vehicle for us to build relationships. And ultimately, you get up in the morning and you go to work because you want to continue to create those connections based on shared interests and goals and interact with other human beings and influence. And, and you know, so I think my career gives me sort of that sense. finding meaning in my own life, I guess that that's really why we're around some, we've wanted to find that meaning. And that meaning for me is really in the relationships that have both, you know, in my personal life, but I think the one thing that struck me through my career is you often think that work-related relationships don't last but you know, I found that some of the strongest relationships I've had in my life are ones that I brought up in a corporate environment. So for me, that's a favourite thing about my career is the great people that I've met along the way. Richard Holmes 27:22 That's great. And when times are stressful, the pressures on when you feel a bit overwhelmed. What do you do to kind of calm yourself down and calm those around you? What advice would you give? Arno Geldenhuys 27:40 I'm lucky that I'm a pretty stoic guy, Richard. So by the minute, the big be a bit woo woo about it. You know, for me, gratitude. Meditation is something that that helps a lot. So you know, when I feel overwhelmed, I sort of take a step back, and I list the state of things that I'm incredibly grateful for in my life, and there's a lot of it. And that just helps me to see the wood for the trees and not be overwhelmed. So it's something that I think everyone will benefit from doing daily. Richard Holmes 28:16 Not it's true. I talking about books earlier, I read a book called Resilience Project. Have you heard about that book? 28:24 I haven't. No, I Richard Holmes 28:25 highly recommend. It's by a guy called human Kohlberg. And it talks about gratitude, empathy, and mindfulness. Yeah. And I've learned about gratitude myself quite a lot over the last couple of years. But this book is just amazing. It puts things in perspective, where we have a lot in the Western world and he travels over teachers in the school and Indian in one of the kids he's teaching. He's just so grateful. He's got a bowl of rice for lunch. And he kind of points out to Ben is the happiest guy he's ever met. So it's such an amazing book. I recommend it to everyone, but it just I think, I think it as you get older as well. And as you go through your career, I think you realize that when when you worry, I read something great. I can't quote it exactly where what were you worried about this time last year? 12 months to this day? What we were in about a bet you can't remember because it wasn't worth? 29:15 That's right. Like we Richard Holmes 29:16 gave it but then I just thought what amazing way to look at it. And yeah, and then actually get all the think cards are really stressing them but I didn't really need to and I think you kind of try and incorporate that to your life. It's a good way to look at it. Arno Geldenhuys 29:28 Ya know, you've never seen resilience, mindfulness, gratitude, those are all things that really resonate with me. So we'll definitely check that out. Richard, Richard Holmes 29:35 let's say it's good. So tell me something that's true that almost nobody agrees with you on Arno Geldenhuys 29:43 gosh, this is going to be a bit of a tangent. But and it's not a popular opinion, but I believe in it's got nothing to do with work either. Is that the fact that purebred dogs exist is borderline animal abuse. Yeah, right. So Richard Holmes 30:02 you know you're interested. Arno Geldenhuys 30:04 Yeah. So I'll sort of dig deeper a little bit as. So if you think about it. Pure breeding is just a form of genetic manipulation. And we invented it to amuse ourselves, right? So someone went I made a dog with super loose skin and I made it one with a flat messed up nose. And once these Dr Frankenstein stopped playing God for a while, they called it purebred, right, which is completely arbitrary. So, you know, they're the right way to think about is when you have a purebred, you should be thinking, inbred, because kennel clubs, you know, prohibit these dogs from breeding outside of their breeds, and they're often breeding with their mothers or the own parents and siblings. And that's creating all kinds of nonsense. So if you think about Golden Retrievers, they've got a 60% chance of dying of cancer and Bulldog, to me might be cute, but yeah, a centre of inbreeding has got them that their noses are so squashed, they can breathe, the heads are so big, they need to be born with severe infection. And, you know, their tails can be ingrown, so they just messed up. And so I think it's, it's, you know, people should stop buying purebred dogs and allow them to crossbreed so that we can just get them genetically better. But, you know, so it's not a popular opinion. But, but, so, yeah, it's Richard Holmes 31:27 interesting. I was actually talking to one of my friends about this very topic in French Bulldogs. Apparently, vets are just rubbing the hands because vet French Bulldogs are just going through the roof here in Australia. Yeah. And they've got the worst in terms of health like things go wrong with them. So that's just like all of the French Bulldogs. Oh, goodness. Yeah. And they just, they just cost their owners thousands, but it's just a popular brand of dog. It's just crazy, isn't it? Yes. Arno Geldenhuys 31:51 It's It's It's suffering. And it can be cured by just allowing them to crossbreed. Right. And that's the sad thing about it. animal lovers are often the coolest. Richard Holmes 32:04 I don't like to hear that. kind of ironic, isn't it? But? And what makes you happy? Arno Geldenhuys 32:12 Some really deep questions. And, yeah, this is a question that I've been trying to answer for probably the biggest part of my life. And what I've learned is if you have to, if you have to try to be cool, you'll never be cool. And I think if you have to try to be happy, you never be happy. So the keys to finding happiness is to stop looking for it. So for me, I think happiness is just the process of becoming my ideal self. So as you've seen, you know, for me, it's creating good habits, values, things that make me a better person, you know, I know if I keep at it every day, I'll be happy with the progress I'm making and with who I become and the process, so it's not a specific thing. It's just a mindset of a state of being I guess, of continuous improvement. Richard Holmes 33:03 That's true, isn't it? That's a good answer, as well. It's a way you touched on everyone strives to be happy, but just take each day a time, isn't it? Arno Geldenhuys 33:11 Yeah, being present, I think I've learned that that's the real meaning of life is just to be present for all you know, it's life's a little bit like dancing, it's, it doesn't have, you don't dance, because it's got a beginning or an end dance for the sake of dancing and life's the same. You just need to be there for the good times and the bad times and, and not just try to be happy because you can't be happy all the time. And so the mere fact that you trying to be will make you unhappy. So it's it's an interesting, 33:42 dynamic. Richard Holmes 33:43 It's good. Well, I know it's been an absolute pleasure to have you on the podcast. I think you've your advice and the insights have been fantastic. And hopefully, we'll get together again on the podcast. See? 33:56 That's great. I appreciate the opportunity. Thank you very much, Richard, speak soon. Richard Holmes 34:02 Thanks. Thanks. 34:03 Great.
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