Episode 17, Phil Wallace, Group CFO, Holcim Australia & New Zealand

Transcript Please note that this has been transcribed by AI/Bots so there may be typos and the occasional strange things happening. Richard Holmes 0:04 In today's episode, we welcome Phil Wallace. Phil is an internationally experienced CFO and board director with a demonstrated history of working in the FMCG and building material industries. Phil has strong supply chain manufacturing and multi-industry m&a experience across the Asia Pacific region. He is skilled in strategic development and transformational leadership, transfer pricing, internal audit, pricing strategy, internal controls in shared services and development. Richard Holmes 0:35 Phil, how are you? Good. Thanks. Thanks for having me. It's a pleasure to have you on the podcast. I've known of Phil for a number of years in the Sydney market, and his reputation is fantastic. And I think his career is paramount to what he's achieved. Phil, would you like to talk about your journey? Phil Wallace. Yeah, thanks. I never cope well, with people saying nice things. So thank you for saying that. And it thinks about Look, I am I reflected my career in a number of different ways. So there's is a long time with one big multinational when I was at Diageo, Phil Wallace 1:09 and I reflect on that in two parts. One is my local career and one is my international career Phil Wallace 1:15 and I have been having, you know, basically joined Diageo when I was quite young, you know, did the usual commercial finance, finance manager, you know, business partner roles, and then Phil Wallace 1:26 and then went into financial controlling, because I realized that I missed that in my, in my early years. And that set me up to then go overseas and do a number of different roles culminating in finance director roles and internal audit roles. And again, I was also feeling an experience gap or a skills gap that I saw in my CV, and then came back to Australia as finance director, 1:50 Left Diageo and changed industries, because I thought, actually, I want, again, a different experience in a different industry to teach me something different. 1:58 And I've got a saying, you know, you 2:01 know, even if, even if you transfer your skills or some something's different, you know, apply what you know, to what you don't know. And invariably, you'll get through so wholesome is where I am now, Holcim's a manufacturing business as Diageo was a manufacturing business. You know, we're a supply chain business as the as your was a supply chain business, we just supply different things to different customers. 2:25 And so yeah, at Holcim, I'm CFO for Australian New Zealand, 2:29 I sit on the board of subsidiaries, of ours, called Cement Australia, a lot of people see the white trucks driving around delivering cement. 2:37 You know, and, you know, this is an end to end CFO role, we do our own funding in Australia, as we deal with capital raising, you know, with texts, as I said, Treasury, you know, we look at the performance, we look at governance controls, you know, you name it, you name it, we do it. And we've also got procurement in the function, as well, as well as operations and sales administration. So where, you know, we're an end to end sort of function here. Excellent. Richard Holmes And how did you find the change from Diageo to Holicm, categorically different industries, different consumers? Was it a fairly smooth transition for someone like yourself? Yeah, it was made smooth by a number of things. One being the acceptance of the local CEO at the time of wanting someone different in the role, he didn't want to build in materials specialist, he wanted someone who's going to bring something different. And he went actively to not look for that and got me. 3:37 But also, you know, I was very, very keen to change. But it's very nervous when you change because, you know, I've been with Diageo for 21 years, the time. 3:49 I frankly, had a lot of doubt on whether or not I could cut it anywhere else. And when you get into a different system, I call it 3:59 a different industry and a different company. It's pretty evident that you're going to do okay pretty quickly, because you start to again, bring things along, you start to talk to people and you're you know, you're at the grassroots in the, in the, in the factories, in the quarries, in the Readymix plants, talking to people about what they're doing, and you see the opportunity. 4:20 And so you're daunting it was, but you get over that pretty quickly, once you realize that you can bring value to the table, Richard Holmes All the learnings you have from Diageo did you implement a lot of that with Holcim? Yeah, absolutely. But I started with the finance function first. So when I first walked into wholesome, we didn't really have a finance strategy and a finance division. So I started there because I thought if I get my own house in order, then I can start, you know, my guys can be freed up to start going and doing what they need to go and do. Phil Wallace 4:51 And then we can work on the rest of the business. So yeah, absolutely. It was Yeah, you know what you want to do you know what great looks like 5:00 You know, and I won't say you change the logo, but you know, some of the language in the wording is the same. 5:06 And you know, I also spend a bit of time linking you with some old colleagues who left Diageo to say, hey, when you went to different businesses, how did you Un-Diageo things, because, again, you've been in the system for so long, yet you use different acronyms people might not know what you're talking about. So you've got to, you know, learn from others and learn where they sort of failed a little bit, in translating what they knew into a new organization, Richard Holmes Going back to them as you're 21 years, obviously, some fond memories for you with that business, and you weren't here in Australia and overseas. Going overseas for was that? Was that a choice of yours? Or was the opportunity presented to yourself. Phil Wallace So like I said, Diageo is an excellent organization for career development, career advancement. And, you know, when you write in your plan that you want it you want an international experience, when the opportunities come up, they search, they search, the, you know, I think it's a workday system, whatever it is, whatever it is, for people that are internationally mobile, and so if you put your hand up internationally mobile, the opportunity comes up, and it's up to you, whether you take it or not. 6:10 And honestly, the best thing I've ever done, now when people say, you know, what's the big thing that you need to go and do? And my answer be available, be available for the project be available for, you know, the presentation, the next day hit short notice right, be available for the International assignment be available for the integration group on an m&a you know, be available to work on the m&a. So, you know, I spent a long time my early career not saying no to anybody. 6:44 That's a separate issue on work-life balance. But you know, any opportunity that came my way, I was up for. And at the time, you know, my wife and I had two small children living in Sydney. And the opportunity came up, and we just went, we went on, you know, went to Singapore, saw, you know, thought a fantastic environment, the children but also a fantastic work, work opportunity. And just went for it and never looked back. We stayed at us. And we were meant to say to 7:15 that's, you know how well it worked out? Well, that's good. So recommendations if someone has that opportunity to work overseas, you said then it's one of the best things you've ever done. Just jump at the chance? Absolutely. Absolutely. Without doubt. And I like that advice, Ron just beat be available. It sounds so simple, doesn't it but be available to the people around you, in your bosses and managers? Right to look at it and not. And not to say no. Yeah. And you know, when I say I never said no, obviously, if you're a business partner, right? Yep. You say no, a lot. Yeah, he's got a compliance role. You're saying no, a lot for opportunities when someone describes it to you. Richard Holmes 7:18 Well, that's good. So recommendations if someone has that opportunity to to work overseas, you said then it's one of the best things you've ever done. You just jump jump at the chance? Absolutely. Phil Wallace 7:27 Absolutely. Without doubt. Richard Holmes 7:29 And I like that advice, on just be available. It sounds so simple, doesn't it? but being available to the people around you, in your bosses and managers? Right to look at it and not. And not to say no. Phil Wallace 7:41 Yeah. And and you know, when I when I say I never said no, obviously, if you're a business partner, right? Yep. You say no, a lot. Yeah, he's got a compliance role. You're saying no, a lot for opportunities, when someone describes it to you. Just ask two or three questions and be really curious about the opportunity. And then you can assess it. You know, I remember jumping on a plane to you know, like, I joined, I joined the army on Queensland, I jumped on a plane to Sydney for an induction. I like the look of a project. And I spent the next six months flying back and forth to Melbourne, working on a project in my early days that taught me about consumers and route to market. And, you know, if I'd have said, Oh, no, I'm just trying to fly my feet in this role in Brisbane, I would never have gone and never had that opportunity. So Richard Holmes 8:31 I was able to actually fulfill with the Ico in the moves you made within that business. Did you have a set career path? Or did we just do a good job and each of the role into the opportunities presented? Originally, Phil Wallace 8:43 I wish I had a secretary about the time it would have been really helpful. And even now, I you know, if there's people out there that are listening to this that think, Well, you know, this guy's planned his way. Yeah, there's certain inflection points that I mentioned a bit about going into financial control and internal audit, they were two things that I did, because I got bits of advice from people around my CV. You know, in today's term, the LinkedIn profile around what I was missing to be a complete finance professional. And so, you know, I was sort of looking back on it. I was I was knowledgeable enough to know that other people would look at me, if I had certain skills. Sometimes I didn't know what those skills needed to be. So I went and asked them what their skills should be. And I you know, I remember vividly having a conversation with a fairly senior recruiter at Spencer Stewart and I was standing on a friend's driveway having half an hour conversation pacing up and down the driveway about the things that I should do and she gave me the advice She goes, You need to be seen to have been in the in the driver's seat for the p&l. It's really interesting that you've done you know, marketing, you know, marketing finance role, that you've never driven the p&l for, for business that that's what you know, and to get there. You'd like to be a finance director, or go further, you need to do that. And those little bits of advice are invaluable. You've just got to seek people that you trust to give them to you. Yeah. Richard Holmes 10:09 And what advice would you give on that field? If you had mentors yourself? I mean, you've touched on a couple of recruiters and that lady from from Spencer's Stewart, just seek out mentors yourself. Phil Wallace 10:20 Yeah. And sometimes they came to you came to you and said, hey, maybe you shouldn't be doing this. Okay, thanks for the feedback. Yeah, look, I do, I did. And I do. And, you know, often bounce ideas off. And yet, in today, it's more about bouncing ideas. I'm thinking about doing this. And I don't really know how. Because, again, some sometimes, you know, you've got in an organization, you know, when we've got this, you got the CEO and army, you know, running performance calls, you know, driving, trying to drive the business together, along with a lot of other people. And sometimes you don't have people internally to bounce ideas off. because, frankly, they've got a vested interest in their business unit, or they got a vested interest in their project. Yeah, but if you if you say to someone outside, Hey, what about this, you know, and sometimes my best history is, I'll go home to my wife and say, Hey, I'm thinking about doing this. And without any knowledge, you'll, you'll say it, and as you're saying it, you'll realize what a really stupid idea it is. And then she'll look at you and you kind of know, I care what I even suggest that that's helpful, because, you know, they don't know much about Sure, she knows a lot about my business name, but that, you know, they don't live the day to day. So, you know, I like the fact that I can pick up the phone to just in good people and just bounce ideas off them. And, you know, in hindsight, I don't think I've ever been afraid to do that. Sometimes you get afraid of what people might say to you on the other end of the line. But if you're not afraid of it, because you're not worried about them judging you, then you end up with a much, much better result. Richard Holmes 11:58 Definitely and as you touched on there Phil, I think when you reach out to trusted peers and friends, you know, they're going to give you some good advice. It's like, it's like free advice, rather than pay for it. Just have a chat with your network. Exactly. Phil Wallace 12:09 Exactly right. Richard Holmes 12:10 What advice would you give to someone wanting to pursue a career like yours? Phil Wallace 12:14 I come back to it that those two things I said before, absolutely be available. Apply what you know, to what you don't know. And I think the third thing is, and this is probably something that I I didn't do as well, in my early career as I as I should have, is really think about your stakeholders. So, you know, not knowing it's a bit easier now, right? Because, you know, see, as a stakeholder, the EGM of other businesses, as they call it, they're far more obvious. When you're working in a business partnering role, especially in big organizations, you know, you've got lots of touch points. It's, it's okay, yeah, it's your boss. It's the, you know, the to business partners over here, it's probably their direct reports. And if you think through the different stakeholders really carefully, you'll realize where your touch points need to be. And sometimes it's only a phone call, or touching, hey, thinking about doing this, or, hey, I saw this, and then you help them grow their business a little bit through that touch point. But if you think about it deeply in the in the stakeholders in any sort of map, how, how linked, or how connected you are with those stakeholders on a scale of one to 10, then you know where to invest as well. And I say this not because I'm saying to people, or you know, scale people on one to 10 and work out who you get a brand knows that, that is not what I'm saying. I'm saying work out who's going to help you and the business, drive things forward. Work at Hegel, your relationship is with him, build that relationship, and you'll move the business forward. And you know, that the be available thing is also a bit about backing yourself. And I do I talk to a lot of young finance professionals who are just not confident and and you just got to back that you're actually you've got to we got to take care, you've come through a graduate graduate program, right? There's up to you know, our grad program 3000 people apply and we take 10. Right? If you've got through a grad program, you're pretty good. Thankfully, if you've got through university you got through the CA the CPA, you're pretty good. If you've got in the door of a major organization, or the accounting firm, you're pretty good. So just just work out what made you good work out what made you excellent to get through and back yourself a little bit because when you do your turn up more confidently, and people gravitate towards you and that's a really important thing. Yeah, Richard Holmes 14:50 that's really good advice for like working in the recruitment industry. We see people who are great, but that cripples a lot of people it's like and I'm always say not when you can do this. They want you to do well. Just Just you see the confidence He's like, come on, you can you can do it. And it's and they know they can't it's just that self doubt creeps in. Phil Wallace 15:07 Yeah. So I get asked a question once by by somebody who said or Tom, tell me what what makes you excellent at, you know business modeling whatever what makes you excellent at this? I couldn't answer the question. straight off the bat, I couldn't answer the question. And then when I sat down and deeply thought about it, I thought about examples than I thought another example that I thought of another example. I mean, as a recruiter, there must be nothing worse than someone sitting in front of you saying, I'm here. I'm here to chat about my next career move and you say, what do you want to do? What industry Do you want to go into? And they go, I don't really know, I just want to change. You're just going to go make a line manager, the same sit down performance review. So you know, what do you want to do next? What skills you do you want to develop? Well, I don't I can't you told me. That doesn't work. Richard Holmes 15:56 You took her a couple of times for that self awareness? If you ever you always had that? Or is that grown with experience? Phil Wallace 16:02 I think it grows with experience. And even now, I you know, I'm very aware that that sometimes my impact is positive. And sometimes sometimes the impact is negative. But at least now, I know when I'm doing it, well, I think in the early days, I was I was, you know, I could be pretty abrupt, I can be pretty, pretty direct. And you know, you learn over time how to put your messages, put your messages in different questions and frame things a different a different way. But yes, I think I've developed a development over time, and a few people give me some pretty good feedback on it, which is also Richard Holmes 16:39 it comes with experience. Going back to your point, the stakeholders where you write them once tennis is a great way to look at it. Because you know, you've got good relationships with some of the ones that you don't; you can pick him up about 10 minutes, that's where you can develop is the one thing you wish you had known at the start of your career, Phil. Phil Wallace 16:57 It's funny; it’s probably how important m&a activity has become, you know, I didn't, I didn't touch him. And I really until the Azure did the acquisition in India, even then I was part of a massive team doing a massive acquisition, I, you know, I was the commercial guy thinking about, you know, volumes and, you know, all that sort of stuff that for different brains. And so it wasn't, you know, wasn't leading in and, and more laterally, we've done since I've been a horseman three years, we've done three, we've got another, you know, another not a number of, of acquisitions on the go at the moment. And just how important that is, and what that teaches you about looking at someone else's business, and looking at from the outside in and, and see what value you can create. I just, there's so much there are so many good things that come with it, because it makes you think very differently to you know, to the multinational you're working in or the small company, you're working there very, very valuable experience. And I wish I hadn't had it earlier. So, you know, in some ways, I feel as I'm still playing catch up Richard Holmes 18:07 with the move to Holcim, what's the biggest area of your current role that you're most curious about? Phil Wallace 18:14 Probably our operations, okay, no, you don't realize that our product is more perishable than an apple, in more words, find that we have it, we have a cycle of that 90 minutes, you know, and the stock goes hard and the ball of a mixer within 90 minutes, right, they do lots of things. And that's exaggerated a little bit, you know, it's a fast-moving commodity. And so, you know, what goes into actually extracting, you know, raw materials, you know, the sale process, but just the operations process, and how it all comes together. I'm learning lots about that, you know, I don't, I don't think unless you probably are an engineer and know the technical specs really well, you'll ever know, everything. But, you know, I like spending a lot of time, you know, on-site. You know, just understand the operations, I'm seeing what people are people sort of issues people face. Because, you know, you can sit in an office and think you look at a p&l and think what's going on there, and unless you understand the operational issues, sit behind that. And have someone explain that to you a little bit. You don't always have to agree with them. You just have to understand them. And so you can make a more informed decision. So, yeah, really, that operation side and, and you know, and I really enjoy it too, because you're actually touching something and, and, and, you know, seeing a living breathing product Come come to mind. Richard Holmes 19:40 But that's the thing with a company like yours, people don't think of it as a fast-moving product. Most of the opposite, it's just gonna be for when you join Holsinger, you learned a lot and you brought a lot of value from DRC or did you face any hurdles? Yeah, Phil Wallace 19:53 I mean, I'm a company like Holcim, it's been around. The US business has been around for over 100 years. Which is that types of precast business. There's a lot of people who have been here a really long time. And so when you look to change things, it's natural that you're going to get pushback. But when you've got an executive that was was looking for changing, looking for a change, it becomes a lot easier. I think if I, well, I wouldn't have got the job if, if they were looking for someone who was the same size. I mean, I think that's, that's easy. That's easy to symbolize. So yeah, but yeah, look, there wasn't this hurdles. And again, I came back to, right, what am I trying to do? Get my finance function right first. And the people listen to this. And you've got, you know, you got two or three direct reports, and not the 150 people that I've got, that's cool, like, focus on your two or three direct reports, work out what your three of you are doing, the four of you are doing, and you know, get that house in order first, then think about what you're doing outside that. So then, yes, I got that in order. Then I started thinking about my stakeholders, who they were and we started mapping out what we wanted to achieve. And, you know, we're, what, three years in, we're probably, I think some of them will now say about half done our regular about three quarters done, you know, again, after Ben's expectation, but there's always more to do. And there's always more. There are always more things to do once you've got momentum. Yeah. Richard Holmes 21:29 Oh, definitely. Yes, we touched on a couple of times, you're self-aware, and you've learned a lot in your career in terms of your own self-learning and development, is that some constant practice? Or do you kind of put it on the shelf for a while and then just do some letting go home? How do you go about that? Phil Wallace 21:46 Yeah, the latter rather than the former, I'd love to say that. I'm reading, listen to podcasts and all that sort of stuff. And I'm pretty bad at it. I mean, I say it's funny, or the irony of it, I say to our general counsel, this morning, my mission for this year, is to go to at least one external speaking, engagement enough to hear an industry Body Talk or someone talk or, you know, just sort of open, you know, open yourself up to what different people are doing and how they're doing it. I tend to, you know, yeah, I get the different publications that come out from CPA or, or, you know, the company directors or, you know, the Korean magazine, that's, that's in the kitchen. Right. And, and then sometimes you seek out things out, one thing I do find it, you do get bombarded a lot. You know, it seemed to me that over the COVID period, where everyone's sitting at home, everyone's searching LinkedIn, and then everyone's sending you an email about, you know, the article, or this or that, and that just got overwhelming. And in the end, I, I just sort of it was just going to be two or three things I want to focus on. So often think, Okay, this month, I want to think about our next agenda. For this month, I want to think about our relationships with the banks. So as an example, tomorrow morning, I've got you to know, I've got the banks coming in one of our banking partners to come in, just to talk to us about what's going on what they're seeing externally. You know, I'll often do that with some of the accounting firms about a relationship with trends they're saying, so you can leverage those relationships with something or go and do a course. And that's pretty much where I've sort of evolved to at the moment. Richard Holmes 23:35 And you touch on earlier, Phil reaching out to network? Yeah. If you don't have something that's linear, it's often reflected in your career, you've seen finance evolve a lot. What does the future of finance look like to you? Phil Wallace 23:47 Yeah, it's a really good question. If you had asked me that, four or five years ago, when offshoring and shared services were at the height of everything, and I would have said, I'm really concerned about how you, you know, how you forge a career in the finance function where you know, you, you step through step three, step three step through it, but it's funny, I think we've evolved and morphed, I think we've, we've, we've gone far more towards the business partnering side of things. But certainly without our business, even though your business partner and you're still doing the occasional Joey's still doing monthly, and you're still dealing with interpretation, you know, interpretation of accounting issues. So, you know, I see that maybe the steps, maybe the steps are bigger, maybe it is, you know, you come in, you come in through a grant program, and then you're thrown into a, you know, a more customer-facing business partner role, whereas you're probably in the past would have been, would have been thrown into two more roles. And so we're leaping people through because some of the information got better, some of the technologies got better, it's easy to get access to data. It's easy to analyze it. So you can put more junior people in front of business partners, because, you know, it's not about crunching the data any more than someone delivering it. I think the future function is pretty good. You know, I, I increasingly see, you know, us at the forefront of m&a activity, I increasingly see us at the forefront of in our governance activities. You know, when, you know, regardless of whether it's, you know, the school PNC, or whether it's, you know, a board position with a not for profit, that skillset is increasingly in demand. And, you know, I think that's a really healthy thing because again, you learn from those committees, you're involved in the or the not for profits you're involved in, or the boards you're involved, when, when you bring that to your organization in any career, I see that people are moving more often. And, you know, probably, you know, employers shouldn't be concerned about investing in talent, because those people are going to leave them, you've got to have a view that, okay, you invest in talent, they may leave you, but you know, they're going to make your industry better. Or, you know, they're going to make competitors more competitive. And so you've got more to compete against, which is, which is healthy because we all need to be pushed. Yeah, so you know, I, yeah, I would have given you a very different answer five years ago, so I'm more pessimistic. But today on, I'm far more optimistic and, and maybe it's a benefit of, of seeing how things can, can be different in a different industry. You know you come in, you come out of a multinational system, where it is all about shared services, and minimizing your local finance functions. And you think that's a really negative thing. But then you go watch, it frees up people to do more business partnering to add more value to think about net revenue management to think about control. You know, they're really positive things. And I think that's, you know, that's what we're evolving to. Richard Holmes 26:58 I've been in the Sydney market since 2005. Phil and I've seen the function evolve fairly rapidly in that short period of time when you look at just 15 years, but I think for people coming up through finance careers, now there are more opportunities for them. In terms of business partnering, there are a lot more interesting roles out there than arguably say 20 years ago, they didn't even exist, like finance, business partnering is only in the last few years, that terms come around. Absolutely. It's exactly Phil Wallace 27:25 what it is. And it's funny how it's in the depth of it too, right. So, you know, I remember, it doesn't matter in concept, you're right, it sort of evolved into something, and then and then it stuck. But it, you sort of felt it was always only at those, you know, commercial finance managers or, you know, that sort of level. You know, and so you know, those people sort of five to seven years post qualified. Now, it's, you know, if you're in the data analytics team, and, you know, someone asked you to think about something and provide a report, you won't have a business partner, because you're adding value to that report. And you're, and you're showing them how to do something differently. So yeah, the depth of that I think has increased. And I think, I think that's a really important thing. Because if in early, you're early in your career, you're thinking about yourself as a business partner, as much as you do later in your career, then, you know, then your stakeholder engagement comes, your insight comes, you know, you've seen as a value, add them from day one. And I think that's super important. Because, you know, when I look to hire people, the biggest question I asked you, asking me is, give me an example of a time when you have added value to a thing, right? And I'd like to say, I think because that then allows them to go and give me an example that they want. But it's about adding value and how they got there and how they're curious to get there. You know, any, and I look for that when I hire because it shows curiosity, it shows tenacity, it shows the ability to sort of interpret a funny question. Why to give a good answer. So there's a lot in that as well. Yeah. Richard Holmes 29:11 If you struggle with that, I think I struggle a bit, working at Diageo. And I've heard really good things about wholesaling as well. culture is very good in those companies. What does culture mean to you? Phil Wallace 29:24 It's a that's a really hard question. Culture. I, for me, culture means turning up every day in the environment, the light working. You know, I think it's as simple as that. I think people can talk about, you know, we're, you know, some people have said to me all where, you know, some of these companies that aggressive culture, okay, that's true, but the people turn up every day and enjoy working in aggressive culture. Yes, they don't like it. That's the culture. You know, it's a very soft culture. People in job training every day and working in a soft culture. So yeah, I mean, cut the culture for me is that you know, and Every organization is, is very, very different, obviously. But at the heart of it is, you know, you want people to get out of bed every morning and think, you know, I'm coming to add value. And when I add value on valued, and you know, and that that, in turn, means I'll turn up every day, you know, enjoying what they do. You know, and, you know, there are lots of companies who do, you know, breakout areas, and, you know, collaboration spaces and, and, you know, I was a real subscriber to that. And then COVID heads, and there's a lot of work from home a lot of people on zoom all the time. And we just moved into collaborating without the soft couches the without the foosball table. And yes, probably not as ideal. But we've proven we can do it. And I think that, again, the culture that's morphed a little bit as well. So yeah, I'm going to see how that sort of plays out, as more and more people return back to the office. And which will come in time. And, you know, that’s going to be an interesting next chapter. I Richard Holmes 31:12 think. It stems from leadership, isn't it? It's that environment where you make people feel comfortable. touch them before collaboration, where you can openly voice your opinion, you don't get criticized for it always fascinates me how some companies have got such good cultures, and others just don't. And a lot of it just comes from leadership. If if the wrong people are in place, it just trickles down. Mike micromanagement still happens in this this day, and age is crazy, is it? And looking at the different finance teams you've worked with, you touched on when you join Holcim kind of sounded like you kind of reverse-engineered it, like let's go back to the basics, get that right, the right structure in place at the time, or was it more of a people? And in responsibilities? Phil Wallace 31:55 It was did you change? Yeah, I didn't, I didn't make a lot of change. Initially, no, I sort of went through a sort of three to four-month period, because when, when I'd done my research on the company, and the team, I realized that there was a lot of really, so my leadership team, a lot of really long-tenured people with, you know, a lot of experience. And, you know, what I found was that they were really generous with that experience. And so it was a matter of just announcing that. Yep. And bringing them together. And then yeah, we look, we made some structural changes later on. And, you know, we uploaded some, some rolls, you know, in time we, we change, you know, we changed some, some people, and some people said, you know, what, I kind of, you know, one out for whatever reason, and all those things are, okay. I, I'm a very firm believer in, you know, engage people in your strategy. And, and then when everyone's really clean, they can make a choice. When people aren't clear. They don't know what you're seeing. And so yes, I don't feel as though I, needed to change a lot and, and didn't change a lot. And then yeah, but three years later, I look back and a lot has changed. But, you know, a number of those people are still here. Some have left the organization to go on to bigger jobs, which is really pleasing as well. It's, you know, it breaks your heart all the time, because you think, Oh, no, you know, I really want you to continue working with me, but, you know, when they go on to a bigger job, that's really satisfying as well. Yeah. Well, that's Richard Holmes 33:34 the thing, people, when people leave companies, sometimes it's a good thing is that you've got you've done a good job in progressing through the career. Phil Wallace 33:41 Yeah, and test your succession plan. Right. So if one of the things you've got on your, on your finance strategy and your vision is aligned, like, you know, ensure that, you know, in so seeing it by minus two succession planning is robust. And, you know, someone a direct report leaves, well, it tests your succession planning pretty good, doesn't it? And that's, you know, then, you know, whether, you know, you've done a good job. Yeah, Richard Holmes 34:08 it's interesting. You mentioned succession planning, I was having a chat with someone the other day, and they were particularly bad at succession planning, they always have been, and this guy has come in, to improve that. But I think it's, I think it's an area for improvement for a lot of companies, you know, they lose a couple of key people and everything falls apart. But it's easier said than done, though, isn't it? Phil Wallace 34:29 It is, I mean, the biggest thing, the one that one of the things that I learned when I worked in global audit and risk as part of that role, I ran the global talent agenda for global and risk as the Azure is internal control, internal audit function. And so, you know, and we used a lot of talent pooling, and you know, it's it's so hard to do because you're interviewing people all the time. You're trying to keep candidates in the market warm, you know, you got to make See, maybe coming up? Or maybe not? It's so difficult because it's so nebulous. But when you do it and you do it well, then it's like, and it all falls into place. You think, oh, why don't we continue doing it, you know, you've got a VISTA want to do it. And then Can anyone in your succession planning internally, that's far easier. But you know, people who put a, you know, a fork in you spoke and you can go, and you fall off your bike, and then you lose your rhythm and your mojo because, you know, someone leaves, you don't expect to leave, and you didn't quite have that vacancy covered and you think, oh, was it all worth it? So it's a very difficult thing to get, right? 35:41 Yeah. Oh, that's Phil Wallace 35:42 gotta keep trying, right? That's Richard Holmes 35:44 exactly the whole talent mapping. It sounds so easy, doesn't it? But in fact, it's, I mean, talent only stays around for a while, and then it moves on, doesn't it? Yeah, it's we recently recent and recruitment industry, where there's a candidate here is good to go. And some people, some companies process just take too long. And by the time the process kicks off the person's gone, knowing what you know, now both in your career and life, Phil, what would you say to younger self? Phil Wallace 36:13 I, very early in my career, I touched right at the beginning, I identified I had a work-life balance issue. So when my first son was born, I made a commitment that when he was sort of six months old, or whatever, but you know, I committed to myself that I behind a regular bedtime story at night. Right. And I didn't know that at the time, but I was putting rules around what I was willing to compromise and what I wasn't willing to compromise. And, and that continues today. So if my kids have got a graduation ceremony or a sporting event, I don't miss it. And, you know, if it means that I miss? Phil Wallace 36:56 You know, it's easy to say, because I haven't had to, you know, a regional results call with the regional president. Phil Wallace 37:04 You know, then, you know, what, you know, the kids’ thing wins, nine times out of 10? Because, because, you know, I've got that in my rhythm. And that's important to me. I think rules are important. I think knowing what you will and won't compromise is important, it sort of comes back to you, though, you said a little bit. I would, I would probably, you know, the m&a thing I would have, I don't know, I wonder whether I should have gone and worked at an investment bank or, or asked for, for US economy to an investment bank or an accounting firm, to learn how to do really, really well, you know, now knowing what I know that that's an area. And there were times when I probably very early in my career, didn't listen to some of the advice I was getting around, where I should go next, and what experience or experiences I should get. And, you know, I eventually got those experiences, but it probably took me a little bit longer. And, you know, I maybe should have just taken the time to step back and explore what the individual is saying to me. Because then I would have understood, I would have understood why they are saying and why they thought that was an important experience as well. Richard Holmes 38:14 In your comment about work-life balance, it's very much an individual thing, isn't it? Absolutely. Everyone's different. I see if I know really well. He said in the company, he works for a great culture. And the way he leads he said, Look, if your kids performing in an assembly on stage at their school, that's the most important thing you've got to do this afternoon. So be there and just do your work later. And that's, that's just a great way. It's great leadership. And I think it's just that work-life balance, isn't it, prioritizing it? Phil Wallace 38:42 It is and I think a lot made about, you know, flexible working now, sort of things and what people don't realize is, I think most organizations give people a level of flexible working anyway. So this whole notion of flexible working is new. It's just like you say you got the assembly on from, you know, 12 to three. Okay, well, then nine to 11. You got to get stuff done. I mean, if that's what, that's what it takes. And if you're a driven individual, yeah. You make it up and make it right. Yeah. Richard Holmes 39:16 And chatting here last week filled with COVID. And people working from home we've we've heard from a lot of companies, productivity is actually gone, gone up from people working at home, it's another different angle on the whole flexibility work from home. Yeah. Phil Wallace 39:32 And I, you know, I don't know how to quantify that. I think, Phil Wallace 39:38 you know, if if you've got a good setup, and you're well-disciplined, it could be that you know, you're saving yourself two hours a day on a commute and therefore, productivity is going up. If you feel disciplined, and without a good setup, then you know, maybe better off than others, right and I again, it's like work-life balance, I think this was for courses. And yeah, I think Time will tell as to whether or not you know whether or not that, you know, the productivity has gone up, I think one thing that you can conscious of is, whenever you think about your location, or where you work from you, I think you've got to be conscious of, of your customer. So, you know, if your customers an external customer, and they're working, you know, in their office, I think you've got to think about, you know, whether or not you're working from home meets their needs. If you're, you know, if your customers and internal customer in my work in the office, you may make a different choice. So again, just being quite customer-centric in how you think about your location, I think is a dimension as well. And we need to sort of consider Richard Holmes 40:47 to factor in Yeah, yeah. And you come across as a calm, kind of chilled collected kind of individual, what do you do when you do feel a bit overwhelmed? Phil Wallace 40:56 Yeah, it's a good question. So look, I run, you know, I don't, I don't run anymore, I used to run quite a lot. I run I do I, you know, I can't I have a problem sitting still at home, my wife will tell you that I don't sit still, there's always the grass to be mowed or lazy to come out of the floor, or, you know, there's always something to do, but that's just me just burning energy. You know, my boys are getting older, and they just bought a new gym setup. So I'm thinking I'll maybe I'll get out there and try and work out in the gym a little bit, you know, that is to do things like that. And I also, you know, I also use, again, that network to when I'm feeling a bit overwhelmed or a bit annoyed about something, I'll pick up the phone to someone will say, Hey, you know, I've got this issue. Now, this is how I'm handling it, you know, and that, that allows you to talk to people, get it off your chest and sort of move on. So yeah, there's sort of some things that I try and do. Richard Holmes 41:59 That's, that's a good point for just talking about it sometimes is Yeah. And kind of bottling it up and trying to figure out yourself. Phil Wallace 42:05 Yeah, and I'll often use it as a relationship builder. So I'll think to myself, hey, I reckon this person's had this experience, you know, in our executive team, and I'll ring them and say, hey, I've got this issue and brings them closer to your issues. help them solve your problem, build your relationship, I think there's this win-win. Richard Holmes 42:24 I think asking for help like you said, then when we're younger, but we're scared to ask for help. But when we're older, we're asking for help all the time. It just, I think it builds trust as well as asking for help. Phil Wallace 42:37 And it was, you know, when I joined Holcimw I, I vividly remember, and I even do it now on site I go. I said, so I'm gonna ask a really stupid question. But just bear with me. Right. And that lightens the load? Is because it was a stupid question. Here we go. At least he asked. If it wasn't a stupid question. I go, That's it? That's a good question. No, you're de-risking it a little bit. Richard Holmes 43:03 So to finish off, Phil, tell me something not many people know about you. Phil Wallace 43:08 Yes, so I wasn't a great student at school. And, you know, my grades reflected that I was more interested in, in, you know, in athletics and in sport and other stuff. So, my dad, to teach me the value of money sent me to work in a, you know, fish Processing Factory. To earn my first, you know, your part of my first year's tuition, so I worked, I worked, shift work, three, three shifts, you know, three shifts on a rotating basis. And it just, you know, it really taught me the value of hard work. And it taught me the value of money and saving towards a goal and saving towards something and, and that's something that I've never forgotten. And, you know, I try and impart that on my kids. And, you know, my oldest is, you know, he works two or three jobs now. And, you know, those lessons are starting to pay off. But yeah, that's, that's something that stood out very often, but that's one of the things that really drives me and it continues to motivate me. Richard Holmes 44:11 That's great. Well, look, I feel it's been a pleasure to have you on the podcast and from the listeners. We'll take a lot from this and hopefully, we'll, we'll have you on again soon. Phil Wallace 44:19 Thanks, man. Appreciate it. Thanks. Cheers. Bye.